Vi är säkerligen många som under åren förundrats över Israels beteende mot både sina egna palestinska innevånare och dem på andra sidan muren, barbarerna som många israeler kallar dem.
Att inte alla judiska israeler är galningar vet vi, men påfallande många tycks snärjda i någon slags evig skräck för förintelsen, något som gör att det israeliska samhället anammat nazisters eller fascisters metoder i mångt och mycket, och den ideologi som råder är inget annat än svärdets ideologi.
För att belysa litet av den israeliska debatten och faktiskt också visa på att det finns andra åsikter än militanta Likuniks, som vill utrota varenda palestinier, så vill jag tipsa om denna (långa) intervju gjord av Avi Shavit för Haaretz, den han intervjuar är sin f.d. soldatkollega, nu f.d. talmannen i Knesset, Avraham Burg. Intervjun gjordes med anledning av Avrahams nya bok som släpps i dagarna i Israel.
Värt att nämna är två saker. Dessa bägge herrar är tämligen antagonistiska trots att de delar erfarenheter efter att ha gått sida vid sida i kriget. Men de representerar också diametralt olika uppfattningar och deras konversation är mycket intressant. Den del jag valt att citera är inte helt representativ för hela intervjun som är på 13-14 sidor, men den är ändå relevant eftersom många av de pro-israeliska advokaterna grinar illa varenda gång man påminner dem om att Isreal har en hel del gemensamt med det tredje riket. Text i kursiv stil är Avrahams svar på Avi Shavits frågor.
In your book we are not only victims of the Nazis. In your book we are almost Judeo-Nazis. You are careful. You do not actually say that Israel is Nazi Germany. But you come very close. You say that Israel is pre-Nazi Germany. Israel is Germany up to the Nazis.
”Yes. I started the book from the saddest place. As mourning, but for the loss of Israel. During most of the writing the book’s title was ’Hitler Won.’ I was sure it was finished. But slowly I discovered the layer of not everything being lost. And I discovered my father as a representative of German Jewry that was ahead of its time. These two themes nourished the book from beginning to end. In the end I am an optimistic person, and the end of the book is also optimistic.”
The end may be optimistic, but throughout its entire course the book repeatedly equates Israel with Germany. Is that really justified? Is there sufficient basis for the Israel-Germany analogy?
”It is not an exact science, but I will describe to you some of the elements that go into the stew: a great sense of national insult; a feeling that the world has rejected us; unexplained losses in wars. And, as a result, the centrality of militarism in our identity. The place of reserve officers in society. The number of armed Israelis in the streets. Where is this swarm of armed people going? The expressions hurled publicly: ’Arabs out.'”
What you are actually claiming is that we have viruses of Nazism within us.
”The term ’Nazism’ is extremely charged.”
Avrum Burg writes in his new book: ”It is sometimes difficult for me to distinguish between the primeval National-Socialism and some national cultural doctrines of the here-and-now.”
”There is a difference between saying ’Nazi’ and saying ’National-Socialist.’ Nazi is an ultimate icon; in us it goes to final and terminal places.”
OK, we will leave Nazism. Are you concerned about a fascist debacle in Israel?
”I think it is already here.”
Do you really believe that the racist slogans which, appallingly, do indeed appear on the stone walks in Jerusalem are akin to the slogans of the 1930s in Germany?
”I see that we are not weeding out those utterances with all our might. And I hear voices coming out of Sderot …. We will destroy and kill and expel. And there is a transferist discourse in the government …. We have crossed so many red lines in the past few years. And then you ask yourself what the next red lines that we cross will be.”
In the book you both ask and answer. ”I feel very strongly,” you write, ”that there is a very good chance that a future Knesset in Israel … will prohibit sexual relations with Arabs, use administrative means to prevent Arabs from employing Jewish cleaning ladies and workers … like the Nuremberg Laws … All this will happen, and is already happening.” Didn’t you get carried away, Avrum?
”When I was Speaker of the Knesset, I heard people talking. I conducted in-depth conversations with members from all parts of the House. I heard people of peace say -I want peace because I hate Arabs and can’t stand to look at them and can’t tolerate them, – and I heard people on the right use Kahanist language. Kahanism [referring to the ultranational doctrine of Rabbi Meir Kahane] is in the Knesset. It was disqualified as a party, but it constitutes 10 and maybe 15 and maybe even 20 percent of the Jewish discourse in the Knesset. These matters are far from simple. These are roiling waters.”
I will tell you frankly. I think we have serious moral and psychological problems. But I think that the comparison with Germany on the eve of the rise of Nazism to power is baseless. One example: There is a problem with the place of the army in our lives and with the place of the generals in our politics and in the relations between the political echelon and the army. But you are likening Israeli militarism to German militarism, and that is a false comparison. You describe Israel as a Prussian Sparta living by the sword, and that is not the Israel I see outside. Certainly not in 2007.
”I envy your ability to read the situation as you read it. I very much envy you. But I think we are a society that in its feelings lives by the sword …. It is not by chance that I make the comparison with Germany, because our feeling that we are obliged to live by the sword stems from Germany. What they deprived us of in the 12 years of Nazism necessitates a very large sword. Look at the fence. The separation fence is a fence against paranoia. And it was born in my milieu. In my school of thought. With my own Haim Ramon. What is the thinking here? That I will erect a big wall and the problem will be solved because I will not see them. You know, the Labor movement always saw the historical context and represented a culture of dialogue, but here we have terrible pettiness of soul. The fence physically demarcates the end of Europe. It says that this is where Europe ends. It says that you are the forward post of Europe and the fence separates you from the barbarians. Like the Roman Wall. Like the Wall of China. But that is so pathetic. And it is a bill of divorce from the vision of integration. There is something so xenophobic about it. So insane. And it comes just at a time when Europe itself, and the world with it, has made such an impressive advance in internalizing the lessons of the Holocaust and has fomented a great advance in the normative behavior of nations.”
Det var meningen att bokens titel skulle bli ”Hitler vann” under hela skrivandet, men den heter i stället ”Defeating Hitler.” Jag tycker att hela intervjun är så intressant att besökarna här borde ta tillfället och traggla sig igenom. Själv ska jag beställa boken så snart jag kan.